SPEAKER_01: 0:03

You're listening to Reflections on Ordained Ministry. Drawing on the wisdom of clergy from across the country, we explore together the changing landscape of ministry and the huge variety of contexts for it. Caris, thanks so much for joining us for this opening episode thinking about discernment in the Church of England for those exploring ordained ministry. The rest of the episodes in this series are thinking about uh priestly ministry and contemporary society and thinking a bit about ministry and context. But today we're here to talk a little bit more about discernment, what that means, what that word's all about, and a bit about the process as the Church of England uh understands it. So thanks very much uh for coming and joining us. Um Karis, why don't you just say a little bit more about yourself as we begin?

SPEAKER_00: 1:02

Okay, thanks very much indeed, David. Thanks very much for inviting me. I'm I'm here as a member of the national discernment team. So I sit in a part of the team which has its notional home in Church House, but we are actually spread about, uh, where we engage with people at national points of discernment. So the the two key national points of discernment, which are what's known as a stage one, which is an online day, and then a residential time later on for candidates. We basically meet candidates at those points, but we have uh ongoing contact throughout the year in different uh situations and circumstances with all the diocese involved in in local discernments. So, which is always a great pleasure. It's a great joy to meet with uh DDOs like yourself up and down the country.

SPEAKER_01: 1:49

Great. And tell us a little bit about your background, what brought you into this work and what you did beforehand.

SPEAKER_00: 1:55

Oh, what brought me into this work? It's a kind of bit lost in the mist of time, really. I've spent probably the past 30 odd years in different ways working in well, longer really, in everything to do with the formation of who we are as people and who we are in ministry. Uh I was um a psychotherapist for quite a long time in private practice for getting on for 20 years, and um have been involved in discernment and formation for people going forward for ordained ministry for nearly nearly the last 20 years, and was ordained myself um about 12 or 13 years ago now as well.

SPEAKER_01: 2:36

Okay, thank you. So, a wealth of experience as we come to talk about the shared discernment process. I I thought we could just break down uh that that term, right? Shared discernment process, and and talk about the ideas behind each of those words. So let's begin talking about discernment. And it's a it's kind of a strange word, it's not really used very much in contemporary discourse outside of the church. Uh why why do we use it? What what is discernment all about?

SPEAKER_00: 3:06

Well, it's it's a it's a huge term. It's um it's quite difficult to get a hold of in many ways. You're you're right, it's not widely used outside the church. Um, and one of the reasons that we use it as a term within this process is to differentiate between uh what could be seen as um recruitment in inverted commas or selection in inverted commas, as opposed to a process which is uh more one to do with um it's a process of sifting, of looking into, of um how to describe it, of engaging with God's call as much as our skills basis. It's a process which involves prayer, it involves um uh actually I'll come on to this a bit later, but many voices. So that what we're doing is we're gradually, gradually sifting how we understand what we are called to be and what we're called to do. So discernment, which has uh in in kind of general terms, uh it can be seen throughout scripture in terms of how people discover who they are through prayer, how people discover who Christ is through prayer and community, how people learn about what they are called to, and sometimes it's it's an uncomfortable uh call. It it's a process of working towards arriving at a place of understanding who we are called to be, rather than a kind of a skills-based recognition of if I can do this, then therefore I am called to do that. It's it's a more, I want to use the word slippery term, but I don't mean that in a in an unhelpful way. It's it's a more fluid, it's a more supple way of understanding who we are called to be in the eyes of God.

SPEAKER_01: 5:01

That's really helpful, thank you. Uh am I right in thinking it has some kind of basis in Ignatian spirituality as well?

SPEAKER_00: 5:07

I mean, I don't know much about that, but uh Well, I mean, Ignatian spirituality certain ha certainly has a huge stream which is rooted in discernment and the the term um uh discerner to do with the um discernment of spirits, it's to do with sifting uh what's fruitful, what's life-giving, and sifting what may be not a place of fruitfulness for us, which is it's it's another dimension uh in terms of ordain ministry. Actually, I'll come back to that in a minute. But in Ignatian spirituality, one of the key facets of that was the discovery of Saint Ignatius of Loyola, that there are certain things where when we feed on them and when we nurture them within ourselves, we become um uh we become we can become fruitful, we become able to um be supported in who we are, we f we we flourish basically, and other things where when we feed on them, we have the opposite of flourishing, where we are diminished by them. So he experienced at a time in his life, this particular individual, that there are certain things which enable flourishing and certain things which brought about a kind of personal and spiritual diminution. So that's something about what discernment is about as well. What enables us to flourish and understand who we are and what we need and who we are in the eyes of God?

SPEAKER_01: 6:39

So let's let's turn to think a little bit more about discernment uh in this process of uh of those exploring ordained ministry. I I wonder if if we could have a little think about what uh is being looked for, what is being discerned, what are what are some of the things that that bishops' advisers, you know, national advisers uh are looking to see, to to discern in candidates that are putting themselves forward.

SPEAKER_00: 7:08

Well, of course, the the fundamental core of what people are putting themselves forward for when we're looking at this particular process is the potential to serve as ordained ministers in God's church. That's the that's the bottom line, that's where we're heading. Uh, and so to go through this discernment process along the way, what we have is we have a number of key things that the church looks for. Then then they're called, they're known as qualities. Uh so in basic terms, we're looking for people who have a really strong relationship with God, which is well-nurtured and well-fostered, and uh is able to sustain the kind of the the trickinesses of spiritual life as well. So something which is is kind of tested in personal experience and uh the capacity to navigate the spiritual ups and downs of life. We're also looking for people who have a profound sense of call to serve in God's church, which can often be experienced in a very personal way. But of course, one of the hallmarks of calling, including calling in scripture, is that this does not happen on a purely individual basis. This happens in community. So there's a very strong emphasis on the call of the individual and the echoing call of God's church so that we get a rounded understanding of calling. We're also looking for people who, I mean, it in terms of the qualities, it's known as love for people. Um essentially, what we're looking for is people who have the capacity to build relationships with others. Um, and I'm not just talking about people who are happy to go out and make lots of friends, clearly, I'm talking about the um capacities around integrity, around relationship building, around managing difficult relationships, around um being willing to engage with all those who find themselves usually on the edges of society. So, and understanding the parameters and the boundaries around that. So, in terms of relating to people, we're looking for people who have a really rounded, mature way of understanding relationships. We're also under looking for people, I mean, we call this quality wisdom, and this is very much rooted, as all the qualities are, in particular dispositions. So when we think about wisdom, we're thinking about it in very particular ways to do with how people draw on who they are and how they learn to engage in the leadership of others, to engage in in keeping people safe in community. We're also looking for people with a profound sense of the importance of being aware of who you are as an individual. Who we are as people is absolutely fundamental to any call to ministry. And when we look at the whole quality of wisdom, we're looking for a profound understanding of how we need to hold who we are before God and be accountable and use who we are as part of our launch pad for ministry, along with all that we we draw from in our spiritual lives. And we're also looking for people who have a deep commitment to enabling others, um, have a deep commitment to some of the aspects of ministerial life, including working with young people, including sacramental ministry, teaching ministry. So, in in this sense of a commitment to ministry, if you like, and being able to demonstrate some kind of experience of this, we call this fruitfulness. And then finally, we look at people's capacity, their potential for engaging in ministry in the future. And that might mean a whole range of things, it might mean um being committed to continuing an ongoing engagement with um navigating the future with Christ and the Holy Spirit. It means an ongoing engagement to um to mission, it means a whole range of things. But this is it's quite a forward-looking part of the process.

SPEAKER_01: 11:35

One of the things that's uh struck me at quality potential over the years is is uh the emphasis on change, you know, so an openness to change in oneself, an openness to leading change, uh to navigating change that might come, yeah, uh, and so on.

SPEAKER_00: 11:49

And that feels really important because you know the church, the church is changing all the time as well. So there's something about uh this this disposition towards change which is really really important. And the notion of disposition does come up quite a lot in when we're looking at people for ministry, because um as much as anything in ministry, we know that it's who a person is and a person's building blocks, um, spiritual life, willingness to change and be changed. All of these are fundamental in anybody hoping to engage in ministry.

SPEAKER_01: 12:29

Thank you, Garris. That was a a wonderfully full exploration uh of the qualities. Um we talked about discernment. Let's briefly talk about this word shared. Uh we yeah, you've already mentioned that. Uh I I know it was specifically introduced in the new framework work from 2021, right? That wanted to put this this emphasis on a shared discernment process. Well tell me something more of that thinking.

SPEAKER_00: 12:53

Yeah, uh yes, it's um that as you say, it was very, very deliberate um to use the word shared. And uh it it's supposed to uh reflect a few things really. I mean, one is the rooted in in discernment as happening within communities, partly rooted in that. The idea that when we go forward for ministry, uh it's it's it's not a a purely individual thing. It's not me and another person in a room. Uh, there are many people who will be involved in the process. Um so whenever anybody goes forward through this process, by the time they may enter training for ordained ministry, um, they will have encountered numerous people, many voices, and it becomes part of an ongoing conversation. Um, so there is this sense of sharedness that there are whole communities of people involved in it. There's our our own church, there's our own incumbent, there are the people with whom we work in the diocese, the people with whom we work nationally, there are many voices. So entering training feels like this is a call, a call within a community. I I remember when I was um ordained deacon, one of the the key things I remember, this was at St. Paul's Cathedral, was sorry to find a quite emotional. Was um part for us in that service is we were walked in with people from our lives. So we didn't all just go in as a procession, we went to us to a certain point as a procession, then we all came forward at the front and we all had um a couple of sponsors with us. Um and for me there were two very important people, one of whom was my sister to be a sponsor. I might have to redo this um to be a sponsor. But the point of that was the sharedness of being called into ministry. And and when when our names were called, um, we had to step forward so that uh you look behind and you see this people, this sea of people who are sponsoring you um from the depths of their being for what you're about to do. And so what you become much more aware of is this is a shared process. You're not you're not there just you're not there for yourself. You're there on behalf of others, with others, supported by others. Um and there's there's the sharedness of the discernment process, the sharedness of the community. Uh so it's very very much an emphasis on there are many involved in the calling of any individual.

SPEAKER_01: 15:34

And I know I mean speaking personally for me, that those points that have been perhaps harder actually drawing on that uh that that history of of sharedness, of knowing that this isn't just something I've discerned, this is something that others have have found to be true, others have seen, others have identified, that that that's then sustained me in those moments where I've perhaps been questioning myself or found things a bit tougher. And that that sharedness has been crucial in those kind of moments. Let's talk about that third word now. So we talked about this idea of discernment in general terms and and and for the Church of England and and this sharedness and now the process. The process. We have to have processes, don't we? We can't we can't get away from them. And it's important that this is not a process like any other job interview. You know, I uh sometimes when I talk to those that have nothing to do with the the church, I the the kind of the most easy parallel I know of uh of a similar process is something like fostering or adopting, where I I don't know the process very well, but there are some similarities where actually it's about a whole life kind of thing. This isn't just a job interview, but but a a depth of being and who one is and relationships that all all matters uh in this process. So let's talk about kind of more how it how it works um and and what happens. In broad, brief brush terms. Could you just give us an outline of the the process and from how you see it as a as a national advisor?

SPEAKER_00: 17:12

Yeah. Um sure. I mean the pro process does sound like the dollish bit, but it is, as you say, it's in it's important, it's the framing principle, really. Um I am speaking from the national perspective and very aware that different dioceses do it slightly differently. But there are always key similarities. So there will always be a time when somebody begins to engage with their own diocesan process, and that is principally through um being in contact with their own parish church. That's how it begins, really. Although to get to that point, there needs to have been something going on. And then throughout the process with the diocese, um, somebody will work with their director of ordinance and will f work through the qualities, they will work through some questions at considerable depth, which we can say more about if that would be helpful. Um, and over a period of time working with the qualities, working at depth at some very specific on their some very specific areas, and having um various points of assessment with various individuals and conversations, there will come a time when they have one of the two national um points of contact, which is a one-day online event. Uh it's it's a series of conversations. Work will continue and then after another period of time, uh usually involving increasing levels of depth in the work with their director of ordinance, they will come to what's known as a stage two panel, if indeed that is where they go to. At any point along the way, there could be various conversations about um how the process is going. And when somebody arrives at a stage two panel, um it lasts over a couple of days. Uh, it's usually residential, but doesn't have to be residential if that doesn't suit everybody. Um, and that's a point when advice is given after some interviews and um group work, advice is given to an individual's bishop on what those involved in the interviews consider to be the next stage for the candidate. And this can all take, it may take several months, it may take longer, it very much depends on uh somebody's own situation, on the amount of work that needs to be done, and the sort of things that crop up during discernment. It can be that we discover all sorts of things in discernment about ourselves that we need to pay particular attention to. Um I remember my discernment process, I can't remember how long it lasted now, but um in my case, um I discovered that because I had frankly sat on my sense of calling for such a long time, I had to manage how I why I'd done that and how I understood why I'd done that and what that meant, and other people were very important in helping me through understanding that. And um so something could be unlocked within me, which enabled me to keep going with the process. So we find out all sorts of different things about ourselves, which may take more or less time to work through.

SPEAKER_01: 20:43

I know working with perhaps most candidates they say that uh that it was perhaps in some ways harder than they expected, but also uh perhaps more profound that they discovered things about who they were through that they weren't expecting. Yeah. Um and and that things were were were in one sense broken down and then reformed within them.

SPEAKER_00: 21:06

Yeah, that absolutely. And I think for many people it's very liberating. And for some people, it's the first time that they have felt fully seen. Um because something inside them unlocks. And so there is something very profound about that, and it needs to go at its own pace as a process. Um, and that there is a certain I think it's I think it's a very generous process in that sense because there is so much that's potentially life-giving within it, as you say, unlocking things about ourselves.

SPEAKER_01: 21:40

You mentioned this word depth, let's just talk about that uh a little bit more. Uh I wonder if you yeah, just unpack that. Uh what what exactly do you mean by this depth work? What what kind of areas are explored with candidates?

SPEAKER_00: 21:53

Yeah. Um, yeah, work does happen at great depth in discernment, and this is one of the things that this distinguishes the process from, if you like, um a regular recruitment process, if you like. Um the depth work is an opportunity for the candidate to go into some significant areas of their life, uh, which when people begin in discernment, it may not immediately be apparent why these things are important. So we talk about understanding people's um histories, understanding people's backgrounds, um, what drives them as individuals. Uh, we talk about understanding um people's behaviors over extended periods of time. We talk about how people understand things like um uh power and power dynamics and their own experience of that. There's a whole area of areas of things that we talk about. And we go into this at considerable depth with people to understand quite deeply what um what what is, I suppose what the hinterland is that people bring with them into ordained ministry. Uh and this can involve discovering all sorts of things about ourselves, of which we've only been barely conscious. Um, it can also bring with it things that we don't feel great about thinking about, um and yet the power and significance of being able to explore these at depth is um is well partly it's very important to engage in ordain ministry, but also we go back to this sense of freedom and self-discovery. Um and the reason we talk about this as being important for ordain ministry is that the knowing of who we are is one of the most significant aspects of what we bring to ministry. So if we think about being called into ministry in God's church, we're not just called in for the the kind of the the bright um wonderful gifts that we have, and obviously people have many bright and wonderful gifts, but we're also called into ministry because we have, we carry within ourselves what it means to be human, including the difficult stuff, the tough stuff, the things that we're uncertain about because all of this is a resource for ministry. We only have to look at the gospels, we only have to look at those first disciples to know that we're not looking at a team of um uh uh glitch-free, completely and only gifted people. We're looking at a group of human beings called to follow and to understand and to learn and to discover. So we are also in the church looking for that capacity to follow and to learn and understand and to discover and to be really open to that process. Um so when it comes to the depth work, part of that is looking for that capacity to discover and learn and understand and own who we are.

SPEAKER_01: 25:14

One of the things I say to candidates is that depth work that part of the reason for it is to keep yourself safe and to enable the churches that you might minister amongst to be safe places. Um is that would that resonate?

SPEAKER_00: 25:28

Oh, uh absolutely resonates, and it's a really, really helpful way of thinking about it. Um we do want people to be safe through ministry, and we want people to be safe for themselves in ministry, and we want the church to be a safe place. Uh obviously it's it's very high on our agenda that we foster and encourage increasing safety and understanding around safety, and that for those entering ministry we enable everybody to be safe as they enter ministry, and part of that safety comes from understanding who we are, understanding what has made us and what can make us vulnerable so that we can be resourced and we can resource others and we can have a profound understanding of what it means to create safety for others too.

SPEAKER_01: 26:19

Yeah, thank you. Thank you. Part of this depth work as well also includes this assessment for psychological well-being. Wonder if you could just tell us uh a little bit more uh about what about that.

SPEAKER_00: 26:32

Yeah, by all means, yes. Um this is an opportunity which is for every person coming forward for a day ministry in in in their shared discernment process, um, for every single candidate to have uh a psychotherapeutic conversation. And typically, typically this lasts for about 90 minutes, and it's always with a highly skilled and experienced psychotherapist. And the the purpose of this is to have the opportunity to explore with somebody who can talk through that particular lens, a psychotherapeutic lens, uh, about some of the issues that may have cropped up in discernment, that may have cropped up in some of the depth questioning. And um, this is always done in a very carefully managed way so that the director of ordinance and the candidate can talk together about what they would like the psychotherapist to pick up on. So in that conversation, there are opportunities to think through some areas which might have been very challenging for somebody in their own past or their own patterns of behaviour, things they've experienced. And it's an opportunity to think through with somebody else all the work they might have done to explore these areas and where they feel they are now in relation to them. And also to think through as carefully as possible, given somebody's um life experience, for example, how might the very particular challenges of ordained ministry, how those might affect them, and to think through together how they could be resourced so that when it comes potentially to being ordained, they already have in place some thoughts about being resourced, they have in place people they can go to or patterns of behaviour that they can um they can draw on in order that they are left in a position where they are safe. We talked a bit about safety a moment ago. So the aim of the assessment for psychological well-being is to contribute precisely to what you were talking about, which is the safety of the individual and also the safety of the church. It's about building a deep network of self-awareness and care and safety and um to enable this to become more and more embedded in the culture for everybody involved in ministry. How can we be safe? How can we be resourced? Uh, how can we keep others safe? It's all very much part of the focus when it comes to assessments for psychological well-being.

SPEAKER_01: 29:14

Aaron Powell Having read quite a lot of of these reports now, uh a number of them will have a few kind of I wonder comments in, which I find really helpful. And they are just that, they're they're wonderings, but they help exactly that exploration when I can work with candidates of of well, I uh uh the the uh the report says, I wonder if this, and so then that's something you can unpack with the candidate and and wonder with them as they grow in self understanding and self awareness in a way that might resource them for their future ministry.

SPEAKER_00: 29:45

And that that language of I wonder, I can I can feel it in my own psychotherapy um background, it it's it's very much language which is rooted in um the desire to encourage um formation and growth in others and And it's an opportunity to reflect and develop our own insight. And also for those of us who are perhaps less used to thinking through some of these issues, it can provide, if you like, a template for learning, a template for thinking through, and a resource for the future. Those moments when we talk and we get some insight to be able to ask the question, well, I wonder what the implications are of this for this. And it can help foster how we can explore and grow in wisdom as well. So it's part of the formational process of discernment, if you like, too. Because we do, I mean we do we do regard obviously discernment as essentially formational. We grow through it. So it's part of that process.

SPEAKER_01: 30:47

I I I didn't plan this, but it's interesting how it brings us back to that understanding of what discernment's all about. And actually, this this assessment of psychological well-being, it's part of discerning, discerning who we are, that why that that that broad sense of uh of sifting, yes, of discovery of who we are and who God has made us to be. And so it fits us into that broader framework of of this entire discernment uh journey.

SPEAKER_00: 31:15

Yes, absolutely, absolutely it does. It feels a very significant contribution to that process of of discernment. Um and again it's the sharedness, it's um the the the assessment for psychological well-being isn't just something that happens and is forgotten, it feeds back in, it's another significant lens through which this discernment can happen so that the DDO and and uh your candidates can carry on the work afterwards.

SPEAKER_01: 31:45

Caris, thank you so much for coming and and sharing and talking together about discernment uh and and this shared process and it's a joy working with you as well so.

SPEAKER_00: 31:57

Indeed, it's lovely to see you, David. Thank you.

SPEAKER_01: 32:03

You've been listening to Reflections on Ordained Ministry, a collaboration between Ridley Hall and Ely Diocese, hosted by David Newton, produced by Matt Cooper, and funded by the National Church of England.