SPEAKER_02: 0:03

You're listening to Reflections on Ordained Ministry. Drawing on the wisdom of clergy from across the country. We explore together the changing landscape of ministry and the huge variety of contexts for it. Well, Diane, Adam, thanks so much for joining. It's wonderful to have you here as we talk about pioneer ministry and ministry on new housing estates as well. Thank you. So I just wanted to begin by introducing yourselves.

SPEAKER_00: 0:37

So I'm Diane Grano, and I'm based in Red Lodge, which is a well, it's a rapidly growing new estate. Over the past 10 years, it's grown to a population of about 6,000 now. It had a small little acemical church called St. Christopher's Church, Methodist and Anglican Partnership. And I was taken out of the church by the Bishop for to join the kind of BMO, the Bishop's Mission Order, the Lightwave Community, which essentially is uh reaching people that don't know Jesus, the unchurched, um, in a rapidly growing community. And of course the opportunity for that is great because it's new families coming in, they don't know anybody, and we can just uh welcome them and become the centre of community in that.

SPEAKER_01: 1:30

Okay, so I'm Adam Priestley. I'm from uh Sheffield Diocese, the Doncaster end of that. And uh for the past uh number of years, um I've been ministering in an estate church, and then we took on another church with another estate as well, and um lots of pioneer ministry have been going off in that in mainly deprived areas. Uh, but more recently, off the back of a call with from God was uh to go into Doncaster City Centre, which is something I did about nine years ago. So I've actually gone back into the town centre. Um, Doncaster is a fairly deprived city centre as well. So uh going back in there with getting a shop, uh this was a call from God, it wasn't just something I came up with myself, um, and to ministering to the city, bringing both um word and sacrament, but also pastoral care and just looking after um the residents of Doncaster City Centre and those who spend their time there, um, also um working with services, working with the local government agencies and things like that. Brilliant.

SPEAKER_02: 2:39

All right, so let's let's ask uh a big question to start with, right? So, what is at the heart of pioneer ministry? Like, how is it different from say more traditional parish ministry?

SPEAKER_00: 2:51

Oh, you're looking at me, Adam.

SPEAKER_01: 2:53

I'm looking at you. Well I'll bounce off your ideas.

SPEAKER_00: 2:57

Oh well, uh for for me personally, it's about the Great Commission. It's really about uh love and tell, the Great Commandments and the Great Commission, uh, which looks very different from parish ministry. I think in parish ministry uh we are so focused on uh what's before us, and running the church and discipling and pastoring and teaching, uh, that all would become mature in Christ, of course, and this is necessary. And for me it's the what then. So we we we're all being edified, and it's wonderful, but what then? And that then becomes the pioneering. The what then is stepping out of what we know and uh seeking the Lord for what he is doing outside of uh of the parish church to those who are lost.

SPEAKER_01: 3:47

Yeah. So I pioneer is a hard one to define, isn't it? Uh, because it can be many different things in many different places. Um, and there are a lot of similarities with parish ministry, or they can be at least, but it I this I don't want to go too theological too quick, but the incarnation um of you know God becoming a man and coming into our world, uh stepping into the sights and the sounds and the smells and the conversations that are just around you, and then trying to draw out a life with Christ or expose or you know, identify where people are with Christ. You walk in, and I I find that Christ is already at work in most places where I go, He's already at work in the hearts of people, and so stepping in it's this thing as as well, you step into someone's situation and you've got to listen and engage all at the same time and kind of um and then yeah, just try and draw out where they are. And I mean, I find that people are hungry for Christ, but the church often misses them because they're not gonna walk in through the doors of some big building or little building or whatever.

SPEAKER_00: 5:01

So yeah, that's interesting because um that's what I found. Um when I was in the parish church, we we found the whole idea of evangelism and telling people about Jesus, um, sort of how we're going to do that. And sometimes we set up programs to do that. And what I found, um, Adam, is being in the community, visible and accessible, is part of our pioneering, doing something different. Uh, people are okay with Jesus. They're totally okay with Jesus. The thing is, it's the the come to church, uh, which they're thinking, oh wow, you know, that's like just a little bit heavy. But um, to just talk about Jesus seems to be okay. So being present uh and pioneering uh where people are. Pioneering essentially is doing something different, isn't it, to what we normally do.

SPEAKER_02: 5:53

So come on, so tell me so something of what what does that look like? What has that looked like for you both in in your contexts?

SPEAKER_01: 6:00

Yeah, I mean, just being out and being present. Um we were just talking before about how uh you know I identified a pub in the city centre. Um and it it you know it wasn't the most reputationable pub uh that most people and you know when I go in there, do you know one of the main things that people say? So I go and get a drink, stand at the bar or whatever, people see the collar, they come and speak to you. And the first thing they always say to me is uh is that fancy dress? They they literally think, and and then they say, Are you a real vicar? There's times when I have to show them on my phone, I go on the Facebook for the church or whatever, and I say to them, Look, here's me in a robe or whatever, I was doing this last Sunday. Because they just and then it just off the back of all of that, they they're so shocked often that the church wants to engage. And this is the incarnational thing, you know. Why will God come to earth? Well, because he loves us, because he wants to see, you know, salvation come to town. And it's like it I find that it's a massive shock to people to think they they they often like, why are you here speaking to us? And it's like, you know, I don't just want to do the old cliche thing, God loves you. You know, he's he's like, yeah, God loves you, and this this transformation here, there is something else which you maybe don't have. And you know what, we find people who do know Christ or have become disconnected from the church as well.

SPEAKER_00: 7:25

So I mean well, I think Jackie Pullinger said, you know, uh you have to have your heart broken sometimes. Yeah, just call that part. You know, it's Jesus or Jackie Pullinger. But really, uh it's you know, sometimes you have to have your heart broken in order for it to become soft. And I love that. And and when you've got a soft heart, your feet become hard because you're gonna be be plowing the hard ground, and pioneering is plowing the hard ground. And what breaks our heart is when you when you're outside of the church and you see those that are lost and trapped in in a world with no hope, um, I I have a huge heart for for the generation that is lost. Um, you know, who's going to who's gonna hand over the baton to them? Who's gonna speak about the hope that we have in Jesus if they don't know? And they're not coming to church. So so we have to pioneer something different. Um and the opportunity, I think, in or have experienced in fact in the new housing uh areas is enormous because new housing areas don't have infrastructure, which means children have very little to do, or families, people have very little to do. And this is the big opportunity for the church to pioneer and do something different, become the center of community, be the social space again. Like back in the day, you know. So it's not really pioneering, it's actually just going back to Jesus, what Jesus did and and and what we we saw when we didn't have social media and television and all that stuff. The church was the social, the church was the school, the church was everything. And and we think, well, why can't we do that? And we can.

SPEAKER_02: 9:14

I remember talking to my grandfather, he was a he was a vicar, you know, when he was still alive, and said, David, tell me something of this fresh expression and pioneer stuff. And I told him a little bit, and he said, I was doing that in the 50s. Exactly.

SPEAKER_00: 9:28

Exactly. It's not new. I mean, we we like to think we've pioneered it, but um people have just forgotten.

SPEAKER_02: 9:35

Yeah, yeah. Uh so Don, but tell me a little bit more of uh of kind of what what that what's that led to kind of what's going on in in Red Lodge and and and what you're doing now at the moment.

SPEAKER_00: 9:45

Well, well, I think it's important to note is that it's not uh we we we don't go out and and start programs like we do in church. You know, we're gonna have a coffee morning or we're gonna have a men's breakfast. No, we respond to what God puts before us. Uh so for example, we we were launched in uh September 2019, uh, and then COVID came. And and so, of course, our ideas or whatever we thought our ideas were gonna be, uh, you know, and it's not gonna be. And that was so great because suddenly you have to think about what is Jesus asking us in in this moment, what is before us? And when many churches closed down, uh our profile was raised significantly because we responded to the need of the community. So we responded to the great commandment is to love your neighbor. And and and then that became the great commission because when in our loving our neighbor, we were able to connect with them and invite them to to hear about Jesus. Let's just talk about Jesus. And then after COVID uh sort of started settling down, we had loads of people in our communities that we loved and served. Uh, but we wanted, we know that um our hope is in Christ, you know. So so we we started what we called uh a breakfast chat. Let's just talk about Jesus over breakfast. And not just any breakfast. I mean, you know, real good bacon bap and you know, good coffee, you know, not church coffee. And um and just brought people together just for a chat. Building relationships, relationships and hospitality. Um, so that was the thing that drove us is just being. You know, we were we we you just have to be. And and people would come and connect with you. And then out of that, we see, well, we're in a a new build area, there's nothing for young mums, and new mums are coming in, they don't know anybody. Uh so we start a toddler cafe. So so rather than it's not a group, it's a toddler cafe, which means uh it's it's kind of uh somewhere where you can socialise, bring a friend, have cake and coffee or breakfast, uh, and hang out with children. And then we are present and we we invite them to kind of the next thing. We're quite intentional about the stepping stones and the journey towards faith because we just we always ask as a team, uh, why do we do the things that we do? And so we can't start or do something unless we know that there's an invitation to know Jesus.

SPEAKER_02: 12:23

And do you have like a central worship kind of gathering uh separate from those things?

SPEAKER_00: 12:28

Or well, yes. So so we we we started with a small missional group. So what's different between a uh a house group for a church and a a small missional light wave group is what we call them. And and the difference is is that yes, we we we study God's word together, but it could be a group that just explores faith together, uh pray together. But the the key thing to that group, the difference is what makes it distinct is how do we serve. Now we don't just serve because we are Christians. Even if you don't know Jesus and you're part of the group, you are welcome. But we still serve and create opportunity for volunteering. We have had many come to know the Lord through volunteering and yearing uh the name of Jesus by just being part of our community and family.

SPEAKER_02: 13:21

Yeah, it's interesting. People don't necessarily want to be done to, do they? But actually, that sense of walking with or doing things with one another actually. So it evolves naturally.

SPEAKER_00: 13:30

And and the thing is we don't transform, do we? Jesus does the transforming. Uh we are called to love and to to speak about Jesus.

SPEAKER_02: 13:37

And you're talking about some of your work in, you know, kind of out in in a pub like that that kind of the church scattered, but uh on the estates, have you kind of developed new kind of forms of gathering?

SPEAKER_01: 13:48

And yeah, so yeah, I mean, we started um at St. Paul's in Doncaster um on a housing estate in 2017, and literally it was a question of okay, so the church was going to shut within two years, and um it was a the church had really dwindled to about 10 people. Um, and I was in the back praying, and um God just kept giving ideas, and he actually said, I remember going to the church warden because he God said to me, 'Prepare for an explosion in November,' and that was the words I received. And I was like, and I went to the church warden and said, Have we got insurance? Um, and literally it exploded. So we started off an afternoon service, which was at first just a few of us in it was in the church, but the church, nobody knew it was a church when we turned up there. I went around asking people and said, What is that building there? And they said, Oh, I think it's a polling station, it's a dance group meets there or something. So nobody knew it was a church, and um, it looks like a community centre. So we just started, we had this great missional thing where we just opened the doors and left them open, um, and people just started literally coming in, and we find people sat down, it was a bit dicey at times, but they just and so we started this afternoon service off, started engaging with the kids off the estate as well, started having conversations. The kids, I remember him saying, We don't believe in God, but we believe in the devil. And so we, you know, we started having conversations like that with them there, and and okay, you know, but they started coming in and we started actually doing. We used to do something uh that was a food like thing, so that was always a bit of a draw, but it was a place to meet actually in a community where sitting around a table isn't always the most normal thing and eating your meal. We started doing that, and then off the back of that sprang so many other different groups, and then we started like a discipleship group. Um, on the other estate for the parish which joined us, uh, it doesn't have a building. There is a um a project locally for people who uh maybe um have disabilities or mental health issues or whatever, and and they kind of come here. So there's a library within spitting distance of it. So we went in there and started doing services in the library, and they just like lively, and the the way you engage with it, it was you know, we use media and we use and it was amazing. We just started praying and just had some silent time or whatever, and people saying, I experienced God, and it was like they didn't expect it, but God came in, and testimonies and things like that were really key to that type of ministry of food as well, um, and having a laugh. I I think being normal amongst people is vastly underrated in the Church of England, just actually being of you don't have to be that theological to create a relationship with someone. So, yeah, you don't have to be, you know, but you can have that relationship, and what I tend to find is you meet someone on their ground, and then they start asking the questions, then they start making those connections. Um there's been loads of other stuff as well, loads of other, it's not programs, but it's groups, and they're always they we often see who God sends and then form a group out of what they know, what they can do, and then try and get them out as well. We've just set up a a neurodivergent service with one of my curates, and he he works part-time in a in a like a home for um people with all sorts of conditions or whatever. So you never want to say the wrong word there. Um and he set that up, and uh people just come along to that, and I I love it. It's it's an amazing service. It's engaged, you know, you can engage with it in multifaceted ways as well.

SPEAKER_00: 17:50

So yeah, yeah. So it very similar, it's uh something for everybody. Often, if you ask people in our uh community um what is it about um light wave, uh they say there's something for everybody. And and that's the thing, it's just doing life together, you know, being the light and love of Jesus and doing life together. But you but but very importantly, it's it's more than doing life because because God asks us to to come together and and fellowship together and worship together collectively. And and you used the word uh mixed ecology earlier when we were speaking, and and it is about the mixed ecology uh of of church and worship that is essential. Um, because you'll find we have experienced certainly that whilst they it's a lot about the relationship that we are forming, it's just being Jesus uh to our local community and and and journeying alongside them. It's it's um, you know, you you we we we meet the prodigal son sometimes, you know, and sometimes we meet uh you know the the shepherd who's after the one. Uh and the and the one is not necessarily lost uh in terms of you can't see them, you know, where you've got to go off and find them. Sometimes they're in your midst. And and I um have a a young mum that has come to our let's talk about Jesus faithfully for three years, and you would with her children and you would think that this lady knows Jesus. I mean, this is her church, this is where she comes. And uh she then said she wanted to come to Alpha, and it was only then that we found out that she never owned, has never owned a Bible, uh, has never really prayed, and actually she just doesn't really know who Jesus is as as a father and a saviour. Um and it was through Alpha, the Elpha, that she started really gay engaging and connecting, and she said, I took one of those um Good News New Testament Bibles that you had in the front, and and so she's on a journey of uh commitment. Um, that bringing the churches together and worshiping together, we do that through encounter because you find as people go on this journey, they want solid food. Uh, and so do you introduce them to the traditional church or do you give them an expression of worship that is uh still accessible in language uh and context? Yeah.

SPEAKER_02: 20:21

Well I love about what you guys have both been saying is that people are hungry for Jesus, right? So and then so Hawaiian ministry seems to from what you're saying, you know, so it's about creating ways that actually we can connect people to Jesus, you know that because they're they are hungry, yeah. And uh and actually of new ways of you know, if if if old ways aren't gonna work, if that you know, actually how do we connect people to Jesus? Because people actually are hungry.

SPEAKER_00: 20:47

Well, this is the thing. I mean, um I don't know if you watched the the movie Jesus uh revolution. I mean, you go and watch it, you'll love it. I think I have seen it. And and and it's about it's about the 70s when you've got the you know the the hippie um community looking for love in all the wrong places, you know, with the psychedelics and the drugs and all of that. And it's not different today because uh our this generation is looking for love in the cloud, in the social media, you know, it's this this false love, this false uh of who I am and identity. Um and the real question is is the traditional church and the traditional way that we do things accessible, you know, it they are looking for love. They they're out, they're looking for love. Are we that invitational and open and accessible? Can they come without their shoes on into our building? You know what I mean? Can they come as they are? And that's the the thing about pioneering. How can we be more accessible, different, to be able to reach a community or a generation of people that are living in the cloud, essentially?

SPEAKER_01: 21:59

It's an interesting thing now. There's a the there's a book that came out called Keeping Christianity Weird. Um and they're doing a lot of work with Gen Z and and and the quiet revival stuff which has come out. And looking at what this generation, what forms of, what traditions of Christianity are they going into, and they're finding that generally it tends to be more I mean, orthodoxy has kind of exploded onto the the scene. Uh I understand why I was on sabbatical the other year. You go into an Orthodox church, you sense it, you smell it, you you you can taste it, you know, in the air. Um and there's a singing, but it it's a bit weird, you don't always know quite what is happening where. But that that has exploded. Forms of Catholic worship have also and then on the other end, the more charismatic styles, and I think this is where the mixed ecology comes in. How we're going to engage on these different like I said earlier, with our church we wanted to have, we've got kind of a charismatic evangelical strain, and we've got a kind of a Catholic strain in the other between the two buildings, and people are able to choose which one. And some people I've been quite surprised, some people cross over and go into each, and they really see the beauty of the colour and the you know the sounds and things. Um Absolutely.

SPEAKER_00: 23:19

Ah, we we found that pe we we assume that people only want what's new and modern, but actually we we've had um a lot of people engage with traditional.

SPEAKER_02: 23:30

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 23:31

Uh and we have and I talk about uh being generous and and that's not just with finance, it's being being generous with our our space and our patch. You know, the tradition of the church is this is your patch, and these are these are my sheep and don't touch them, you know. Uh but actually we we have to we have to open up. Uh we have to allow uh all Christians to step up and step out and invite uh people to wherever they feel comfortable, whatever church that may be. And it might not be the church that I'm leading, when you when you journey with someone and you you form a relationship with somebody, you could say, actually, you would love uh this church. It's all about them growing in in faith and and knowing Jesus.

SPEAKER_01: 24:20

You know, something which Diane said earlier on, and it actually made the hairs on my arm standing. You talked about like kind of going out and being out in the being out in the community and so engaging with people. Because they were like she like sheep without a shepherd. And I think that as well, you know, God puts in certain He calls you into context, and I think he'll often it's not always easy because even loving isn't always easy, is it? And we don't know how to act in certain situations. But you know, just I think people know when you genuinely have a heart for them, and I think they when they see cr that and you're saying this is Jesus, and they see that, I think it connects them with Jesus in another way. And I think having a heart for the context that you're in, it's not always I I don't want to say, Yeah, we just love and it just pours out of me, and it is you know, it's not always like that. Sometimes it's really hard. But I think people notice the difference, you know, when you keep turning up, when you keep going and speaking to them and you know, go and sit with them, and uh when they ask, can I come and have a conversation with you? Can I, you know, and they start sharing stuff and then you see them again, and then you can that relationship building I think is key in pioneer wherever you go in the community, like where Diane is or wherever.

SPEAKER_02: 25:48

And let's I just want to kind of pick up on that. You see, you know, you said it's not all easy, like sometimes it's it's pretty hard. And so let's just talk about that for a little bit. You know, what so when yeah, when when is stuff been difficult? When has it been hard?

SPEAKER_01: 26:04

Yeah, I mean I I mean one of the things I find the hardest is viewing like kind of deprivation and not knowing what to do in the face of it, like literally, you see people in dire circumstances, and there there are times this was actually a few years back when I was in uh Doncaster City Centre before, and uh there was a couple of people who had been rough sleeping and are you know really um built up a relationship with them and and we actually got them, we did so much work to get them booked into a man and a woman to get them booked into a Christian rehab centre. And um, you know, we every time we saw them, oh you know, we're all right if they've got you booked in, we'll give you a lift there, we'll get you down to whatever. And when it came to it, you know, they they just wouldn't take that extra step, and literally it broke my heart, you know. I actually found them in a tent sleeping in the woods. Um and I I I get I get quite emotional uh when I'm faced with something like that because you want them, you know, uh all these conversations that you've been having for months, or someone are you working with, as a guy I was working with, you know, and then he just disappeared and now he's in prison and he's actually done something quite bad, you know what I mean. How do how do you reconcile what God is doing with like the f the folly of humanity and and and the sinfulness and um just just being in amongst it sometimes you see the hurt and the harm which spiritually people do to themselves or if you want to even make it more theological which the enemy is doing with them, it's really it's really hard. I it it break it breaks you sometimes when you not as like a kind of a uh a skeleton of an idea or something. These are people that you know, these are people who have shared. Do you know what happened to me when I was XYZ? And you know what they're they're struggling with. And that that's the thing I find the hardest because with human humanity comes not just messiness but comes a whole load of pain, and it's everywhere. And I think that's I think that's what Christ saw. I'm not trying to put my place here, myself in Christ's place, but I think that's what he saw when he looked down. It says he has compassion and he weeps for them, and he, you know, they are like uh a sheep without a shepherd, and that's heartbreaking. I think it's heartbreaking for the father, and it should be heartbreaking for the church.

SPEAKER_00: 28:33

Yeah, yeah. I I can resonate with that. I mean, and and looking at my team when we where we have prayers and we are sharing, and um and then they share about just uh somebody that they've been journeying with for a long time that has started coming to church and really praising and worshiping the Lord, and then suddenly uh, you know, a team member would be crying because um the time invested and seeing God really work in this person's life, and then suddenly uh there's a wrong choice in our humanness uh that they make. And uh uh on on social media you you have one of your young disciples sort of having stolen from the doorstep of with the camera showing.

SPEAKER_01: 29:21

Is that where my milk went?

SPEAKER_00: 29:23

Just broken uh the the reality of the brokenness of of mankind and the world and and our teams. Uh I just want to say it is not easy. Uh the Great Commission, responding to the Great Commission is not easy. The harvest is big, it's ripe and ready to harvest. The work is off you. We struggle. We struggle to get Christians to come and serve alongside us. It's a sad, sad uh reality. Uh, when we we need an alpha, we've got to look around and say, where are we gonna find? Believers to help and sit at a table for alpha. Where are we going to find Christians to the whole thing is about sustainability, you know, financial sustainability in this pioneering, and you've got five years. You are reaching people that are young and not earning salaries. Now, let's grow younger people. Let's grow younger. And yes, I agree. But they're not going to be tithing. The sustainability comes from tithing, uh, you know, regular giving. Uh, and then it's also new Christians, it takes, it can take three to five years of journeying alongside people before they really come to faith and the understanding of of giving and being really embedded in what we know is something wonderful in our giving. But Christians give to their church. Very little will give to something outside of their church regularly. We tithe to our church. And then, you know, asking churches to tithe, which we've we've tried, uh, different denominations, you know, tithe towards the mission people, because you know, it's not sustainable and we need boots on the ground. Um, but there's a reluctance to do that. Uh, and so I think one of our great challenges is Christians not stepping out of um that space. You know, we go to church to be edified, to be built up. And what then, what are we using that uh blessing for, if not to to uh participate in the Great Commission?

SPEAKER_02: 31:39

I'm glad that that question of financial sustainability, I'm glad you've raised that because that's a difficult one for you know, if if you're given five years, like you said, you've got five years to be financially sustainable. That's the directive that comes from above. Yeah. So it's not gonna happen. What happens after that? Right, right. It's uh it's an unrealistic goal in so many ways, isn't it?

SPEAKER_00: 31:56

Well, well, absolutely.

SPEAKER_02: 31:57

I mean, for an answer then.

SPEAKER_00: 32:00

And as you you constantly have to sort of justify your position. So, well, you know, surely after five years, well, no. You've got to be, if your boots on the ground, you will see and know uh it's a hard ground to plow.

SPEAKER_02: 32:13

So, what keeps you both going when when things do get tough?

SPEAKER_00: 32:17

Oh, come on. It's when you see one life transformed, it just gives you life. That's that just gives you life. You will never experience something more powerful and more beautiful and more life-giving than a transformed life. And you know and see firsthand that Jesus is alive and he's active and working even today. Uh, if we're just trapped in the church building, uh you you're losing out.

unknown: 32:46

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 32:46

I d I really can't put it much better. I think that that's what it all is. It's like, you know, uh we saw a healing of a guy recently um and he he had a uh uh a terminal illness and uh healing and he comes and he says, That's Jesus, isn't it? And I'm like, you know, because we've been praying together and we'd gone out the way in the pub to go and pray together in the corner. And um and he just he saw it, he got it. And what's more exciting than that, you know?

SPEAKER_00: 33:19

And and also, you know, we we're talking about integrating back into the church building. What is wrong with us? You know, let me tell you, we uh we were operating out of the and still do some of our ministries out of the parish councils run sports pavilion. And when we took half of what we were doing into the church, the parish council, who are not believers, uh said to us, You've just taken the heartbeat of the community away. This this the centre of the community has just moved away. And so what are we what are we saying when we say integrate back into the church? Well, we're saying, well, let's take uh let's just box uh God's mission, God's great commission, into the church.

SPEAKER_02: 34:06

Yes, you gotta think about the contest. If in your contest, that's just not you know where the center of red lodge is, right? You know, and so on, it's not gonna work with with trying to reintegrate. It has to be, you know, you need that new thing in the with this new community.

SPEAKER_00: 34:18

Well, let's unpack integration. Is it not more about unity, both and not either or? It's gotta be okay to coexist, to be the God's mission belongs to the church. It belongs to the church, but not necessarily in the church building. Do you know what I mean? There's a difference.

SPEAKER_02: 34:40

It comes back to what I think has been the golden thread throughout this conversation of actually it being about encounter with Jesus. Like everything and that's what inspires you, that's what keeps you going when it's tough, is seeing people encountering and then transformed by Jesus Christ.

SPEAKER_00: 34:55

And your faith is tested every day because you've got to trust, you've got to trust God for his provision for the building, uh for the overhead costs. Uh, because of course, being faith uh a faith um uh group, we we're not gonna get external funding because we are faith group. So we we try and get external funding for other stuff, equipment for the youth and stuff like that. But for our overhead costs, we're we're dependent on Christians in the church.

SPEAKER_01: 35:25

I d I'd I'd just say I see I see that you know that struggle. I we always say with our lot it it shouldn't work on paper, and I literally don't know where it's come from at times, but it we've always had enough. We just it always it always comes. You know, until when God stops it, that's when he wants the ministry. You know, we'll know that that's the end of that one, and we'll we'll look for his calling somewhere else. But I think I think this is a key thing about Pioneer as well, is just actually being willing to step out out of your safety, stepping out of the boat, if you want to put it, you know, like a Peter thing, stepping out and actually not knowing whether you're gonna sink or or whether you're gonna walk, and just being willing to do that and and know that if God doesn't show up, then actually it's all gonna go to pot. And and even sometimes when God is there, you sometimes feel like it's you know, it there's those late at night, I don't sleep well at night, and uh there are times when the anxieties come and and I think it it's that it just if he if God doesn't turn up, this isn't gonna work. But how exciting because you get to see him turning up every time.

SPEAKER_02: 36:40

Thank you so much for coming and sharing something of your pioneer ministry. It's been really great chatting to you. Thank you.

SPEAKER_00: 36:46

Brilliant, thank you for having us.

SPEAKER_02: 36:52

You've been listening to Reflections on Ordained Ministry, a collaboration between Ridley Hall and Ely Diocese, hosted by David Newton, produced by Matt Cooper, and funded by the National Church of England.