SPEAKER_04: 0:03

You're listening to Reflections on Ordained Ministry, drawing on the wisdom of clergy from across the country. We explore together the changing landscape of ministry and the huge variety of contexts for it. Well, thank you to the three of you for joining me in this uh episode as we think about what it is to be priests of people. Uh oh no, let's try that again. Let's definitely try that again. What am I saying? I got thrown by this study theology thing. I'm so sorry. Right, which is right, the place, that's what I'm saying. Okay. Okay. So well, thank you to the three of you for joining for this episode as we think about the place of prayer and the place of study in the life of priestly ministry. It's great to have you with us. I wonder if you could just begin by introducing yourselves, tell us where you're from and something of what you do.

SPEAKER_00: 1:02

Hi, I'm Isabel Hamley. I'm the principal here at Fridley Hall, where we train audience, and I'm an Old Testament scholar.

SPEAKER_02: 1:09

Hi, my name is Josh Cockane. I'm based at Cranma Hall in Durham. I'm the academic dean, so I oversee the academic programs at Cranma and I teach mission and church planting.

SPEAKER_01: 1:21

Hi, I'm Dorothe. I'm the academic dean at Murfield College of the Resurrection. I'm also a New Testament and Pauline Scholar, and I teach all things biblical.

SPEAKER_04: 1:34

Today I'm going to talk about prayer and study and the place of that in in the life of ordained ministry. So let's begin by thinking about prayer. Everyone's called to pray. Every Christian is going to have some kind of prayer life, right? So, what would you say is distinctive about the priestly call to prayer? Who's gonna kick us off?

SPEAKER_01: 1:59

I'll try. I think um priests are specifically charged to pray in an intensified way, and also to pray on behalf of their churches, their parishioners, the people they they are leading. I learned a lot from Graham Tomlin's book, The Widening Circle, Priesthood as God's Way to Bless the World. You know, there's this picture of concentric circles, and in the middle is God is Christ. And I think priests are called, if you like, to sit that bit closer to the fire and to stoke the flames and to keep that space open for prayer. It doesn't mean that if they pray, uh the the people of God do not have to pray anymore. It's the opposite. It is holding that space open very reliably so that others can join in.

SPEAKER_02: 3:01

Yeah, I was I was reminded of something similar to what Dorothea's talking about. Um there's an essay which I have my ordinance read uh by a theologian Evelyn Underhill called The Parish Priest and the Life of Prayer. It's not what they're expecting to read on the third week of mission class, um, but actually it touched on exactly what Dorothea was just talking about there. Um Underhill beautifully puts this idea that um the life of the priest is a life to call people into the supernatural world, the supernatural life. And so she says that the priest must be the person that uh prays, that lives the supernatural life, so that they can invite others into that place. Uh, she later goes on to say um prayer is more easily caught than taught. I love I find that line really helpful um that prayer is something that that can be caught. And so we want the people that are leading uh God's people to be people that are infectious in the life of prayer, uh, that speak of that passion for for God and point people towards prayer, not not in place of, but to call them into that life. Um so I I find that the image of the sitting closer to the fire really, really fruitful for that.

SPEAKER_00: 4:10

Yeah, from a slightly different perspective, I agree with what you've said, but I'm not gonna repeat it because you've already said it. I think there is also a specific call to bear people's God's people on your heart, which for me is really powerful as a priest. And I often think when I stand at the communion table and I say the Eucharist and I invite people as I place a wafer in their hand that bear them in prayer. You know, often I know them, but I don't always, but there's a sense of taking them up in prayer as well and bearing them on my heart in a really deep way. And for me, that's kind of distinctive in a sense for a priest. These are the people that God has given you to care for and to pray for and to intercede for.

SPEAKER_01: 4:54

I really like that. That's beautiful. I was reminded of um Aaron's breastplate in the Old Testament Exodus, something, where uh the twelve precious stones representing the twelve tribes of Israel. So I I love this image carrying God's people on your heart as a as a priest. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04: 5:16

Doesn't Michael Ramsey say something in that in his classic book, you know, being with God, with the people of God on your heart, and that being a really kind of key part of what priestly vocation is about. And I suppose there's something of of a cure of souls, like when the bishop hands uh an incumbent, the you know, piece of paper says, Yeah, share this cure, which is both yours and mine, and there that that that that sense of cure of souls includes holding these people, as you say, being charged to pray for them, hold them before God in your heart.

SPEAKER_00: 5:46

I suppose there's one thing that I would add as well, which is prayer is also about listening. So it's not just about the things we bring to God, but you know, as a priest, you have so many decisions to make, and and actually there's a sense in which prayer is also about God helping you discern where to go, discern what to do, discern how to respond to situations. And we need to make space to listen to God, because otherwise I think prayer can become, or at least ministry and business can become divorced from prayer. And I think we kind of pray in the morning and that's it. We've done our little spiritual bit and then we go and make the decisions of the day. Whereas for me, there is that thing about making space for God throughout the day and make space to listen to what where God is leading you. You know, I don't do that perfectly, if at all, at times, uh, like all of us. But you you know what I mean, there is that sense of I somebody calls it there's always a risk of being a practical atheist. So we kind of pray over there, but actually, when it comes to it, when we make decisions in our PCC, where we we do that with just without necessarily involving God in every aspect of the decision. Um and that's where as a priest we're both called to do this, but also to model it and invite other people into that constant conversation and awareness.

SPEAKER_01: 7:11

Yeah, and I feel if there is a bit of a prayer discipline, maybe in a at a set time, in a set space, uh coming to that place, sitting quietly, sitting with God's people, that's already the prayer I I feel. And when I do that, um I'm more likely to pray for very mundane things, you know, like Jesus, please, where is my car key? And without the discipline, this might be my first prayer of the day. And uh it's just being interrupted, I think that's such something so offensive for our busy society to hear the bell and to be interrupted and to be put on the cassock, which I thought was crazy to be in the beginning, but it's all about saying, Yes, I consciously turn my attention to God now for some time, and then I go about my business again.

SPEAKER_00: 8:11

Which can be hard in the parish, can't it? Because actually, I know that here in the theological college, or when I was working at Lombest Palace and we had three services a day, you do get called to prayer. You kind of, you know, whether you like it or not, prayer happens and you expect it to be there. Where I think in the parish, there is always that temptation to just kind of work and do this and go and do your next code, and you know. Um, and actually there is something about the need to form habits of prayer within ourselves, so that just like lunch, you get hungry, you know, if you don't get it.

SPEAKER_02: 8:47

And I wonder I wonder if there's also a risk with that that that that kind of pragmatism can also kind of leak into prayer, that sometimes prayer in the the midst of busy ministry can become um just asking God for things, and what very quickly slips away is that kind of the the depth of adoration of God for God's sake and not for the goods that He can provide for me. Um so that when um ministry is really difficult and things are not going as we like, actually that that's when I think prayer can be quite testing, if really the only vision of prayer we have is we just ask God for things and he gives them to us. Yeah. Rather than actually we seek God uh for God's sake, not for not for what God can give to me.

SPEAKER_00: 9:31

For me, that's why it links to our other topic, which is study. Because I I mean prayer and study are closely linked, and because my area of study is scripture, I get a study for me is prayer, but sometimes I find that I meet God in study because it takes me outside of myself. The study, kind of studying scripture, takes me outside of the concerns of what do I have to do, what decisions do I have to make, and just it's studying God and the story of God for God's sake, as it were. And of course, I might make all kinds of links with practical ministry, but there is something that pulls me back, and that's probably partly why you know kind of services and offices we have scripture reading, don't we? It kind of holds us out of ourselves and into the story of God.

SPEAKER_04: 10:20

The daily office almost refuses that kind of utilitarian pull, doesn't it? It just hit there, it's the basis of the foundation, it's what what every uh ordained person you know says that they will do each day, and it just sits there as that that foundation that says this isn't just about getting what I I need from God that day, the answers to these questions or whatever, but actually to be pulled out into these stories.

SPEAKER_01: 10:42

Yeah. For me, prayer is fundamentally acknowledging I'm not self-sufficient and I'm not self-sufficient or opening, breaking open life to God almost. And uh praying the office and and praying the liturgy for me, it's also being put in touch with uh with a greater church, with all the people who have already lived and walked in the faith and with the voices of scripture. They have uh have a primary place, obviously. But yes, I I think this is a nice phrase to be taken out of myself, and for me it's being put into a greater horizon, and it kind of puts my uh anxieties in place, and it it puts my uh my ambitions in a context and in place. It doesn't uh say they are bad, but you see, there is a it's a greater picture out there than what you at this moment want to do. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02: 11:46

And it and and for that reason it also means that when prayer is really hard, and I think actually we don't talk about this enough, but as ordained people, um prayer is not always something that's lovely and wonderful and we want to do. Um prayer has seasons of being really difficult and painful, um, and actually we don't want to pray sometimes. But for me, one of the gifts of the officers is precisely that they they provide words when I don't have any, that they take me out of myself. And actually, I think in the context of a parish, that's it's really crucial that we um don't just tie the life of the congregation to our own spiritual ebbs and flows. As much as prayer is about that kind of passion and inviting others into the life of prayer, um, there needs to be some scaffolding, which isn't just about me and how I feel and how excited I am to pray this Sunday.

SPEAKER_04: 12:38

Yeah. And so that's not just about the the the daily rhythms, but actually, as you say, the Sunday and leading people in liturgy that actually ha has some some scaffolding, some some basis that it each each week, yeah, actually we bring people before uh the the mystery of God you know in in bread and wine uh and and and preside over the Eucharist. It doesn't depend on how I'm feeling within, right? There's something really important there, isn't there?

SPEAKER_01: 13:04

And it struggles people who prize authenticity a lot, uh like my home tradition, they might struggle a bit with these set prayers, but you can lend your voice to them, you can put your entire heart into them. And in the beginning, uh I thought, well, everything is already there. What is my preparation for this service? And I quickly realized um it is a different way of preparation, praying throughout the week is the preparation, being at the fire throughout the week is the preparation for making that fire visible, as you say in the Eucharist, Christ's self-giving for the life of the world. This is what is at the heart of the universe, and um we prepare for that uh in between.

SPEAKER_00: 13:58

There are different ways of praying on there, and I often think we we often make it sound like it's either you use liturgy or you do spontaneous prayer, but actually, I think it's a both sound and and they're both needed for spiritual health. That actually it's important for me to be able to bring some stuff of my life that's very specific and personal to God, but it's also important for me to have that wider scaffolding, as you called it. Uh yeah, I mean, I come from a tradition that doesn't do a lot of liturgy, you know. I came to the Church of England, so a church that was so low too subterranean. Um and but I I really saw the power of liturgy when I was when I was an ordinant and I was on placement with a church, and it was I chosen to do a placement outside of my own tradition. So I went to the church that was much higher. And we went to this um nursing home, and it was a nursing home for people with advanced dementia. And we went there and we were doing communion using the Book of Common Prayer. All of it was outside of my comfort zone. And we set up the table, and there were lots of people around the room, and they weren't even looking at us. Some of them were just gazing vacantly, looking at they were sleeping. It just felt, and I was just thinking, what are we doing? Why are we here? And then we started saying the words that people had learnt over the years, and gradually every person in the room turns toward us. And when we got to the Lord's Prayer, which I suppose is the bit of the liturgy they would have said most often in our life, virtually every person in the room was saying the Lord's Prayer. And as we moved away from the Lord's Prayer into words they didn't know as well, they stopped paying as much attention. And it was just, it was incredibly holy. There's no other word for it, that sense of the presence of God with us. But it made me kind of think about that actually using liturgy, it's partly about merging with the rest of the church, the wider church. It is about having words we don't have, but it's also about those words that will be like muscle memory that will carry us when the center of who we think we are even kind of dissolves. And sometimes I worry a little bit that in my own tradition we don't use enough words that will carry people into their old age in the same way.

SPEAKER_02: 16:24

I wonder if actually I'm I'm from a lower church tradition within the Church of England as well. And I wonder if actually some of the muscle memory that's built is actually more in music than in words in in the evangelical tradition. And my worry with that, and this connects to the the second topic as well around study, is that we don't always pay a lot of attention to the theology of of songs. Yes. And I and there's I mean it's the kind of typical academic works into a church um problem, isn't it? But there's so many words to contemporary songs that I just find deeply problematic theologically. And if that if it is building that muscle memory, then I think I wonder if we just we need to be people that are calling people to do that hard work of wrestling with what are the muscles that we're building. Because music is incredibly powerful, isn't it? To to build lives of prayer and to to give people those words to say.

SPEAKER_04: 17:15

Let's let's move to to think about study then, uh, if if if that's all right. Uh and I mean I suppose you've already kind of touched on this uh a little bit, but but I I've intentionally brought prayer and study together in in this episode. And what what I what what for you is the is the connection between those things?

SPEAKER_00: 17:34

I mean for me personally, they're almost indistinguishable because when I study, I am praying and I meet with God through study. And uh that's it's something I struggle with myself for for a long time. Because for a long time I felt like I was a second-rate Christian because I didn't find prayer easy, I find prayer hard. And then when I was in my 20s and I was starting out as a preacher, I was in this church where there was this old lady who was like, she was a saint, she was amazing. She like always had a word from God, she was a prayer warrior, she had words of prophecy. She, and every time she said something, you were like, Oh my goodness, this is this is exactly right. And I looked up to her and I spent so much time thinking this this is what I should be like. And one day I was preaching, and after I preach, she comes to me and said, I wish I had your gift. And I was just stuck in my tracks and just thought, but I wish I had yours. And and that began really a journey for me of thinking, actually, we are a body, and all of us have different gifts. And one of my gifts is that I meet with God through study. And when I study, I offer that meeting with God to other people to join me into it and meet God through through the scriptures. And so I think the two things they're not linked in the same way for everybody, but I resist any kind of call to dichotomize study and prayer. For me, study is worship, it's learning more of God, it's coming into the presence of God, together with God's people throughout time and place. And that's that's a beautiful way of praying.

SPEAKER_02: 19:15

I wonder if some of the problem is that when people hear the word study, they think of academics, lots of books, words they don't understand. Um, and I and I think actually getting people to wrestle with what we're doing when we study is crucial. Um, theology just literally is the the study of of God and how all things relate to God. And I think if um so the philosopher Aristotle says if you want to understand a mode of study, you have to understand what the kind of thing you're you're trying to study is like. So if you want to study the stars, don't use a microscope. And I think the same is true of theology or any kind of study of God and prayer, because God is the kind of uh God is God is calling us to lives of adoration and calling us to relationship uh with God. Actually, study is fundamentally has to be rooted in our our praise, our worship. Um so for me, the I just can't separate the two. I think seeking to understand who God is calls me deeper into the life of of worship and praise, um, and praising God calls me into that um that desire to seek more of who God is, to understand God. Uh and so I think the two are deeply connected in really important ways. And actually, people there are people doing theology uh in the church that might not call it that, but they are active in doing um theology, uh, and there are people in academic institutions that doing that are that are worshipping as they as they they study.

SPEAKER_00: 20:47

And actually, as you utter the words of a prayer, you're doing theology. Because the way we pray, the things we choose to pray, the God we imagine in our head we're praying to, that's theology.

SPEAKER_01: 20:58

Yeah. Yeah, I like what you say that it is really almost two sides of a coin. I when I was a young theology student, um I really loved the verse by Paul saying, I want to pray in the spirit and I want to pray with my mind. And of course, he refers to uh Glossalalia with pray in the spirit, speaking in tongues. And I it it gave me the freedom, like you said, Isabel, to yes, I connect with God through studying. And there are ways for me when I pray in the spirit, like uh singing hymns, listening to music where it's more immediate. But nevertheless, Paul says, and I want to pray with my mind, you know, engaging the mind, loving God with all your mind is part of the Christian faith, and it's honoring God if we do that. I think that is um important to see it as a spiritual practice to begin with.

SPEAKER_04: 22:05

I wonder um when when students in ordinance come to theological college, what what do you think that they are hoping to get out of it? And and does that match with kind of what you think the purpose of um theological formation is for?

SPEAKER_00: 22:25

I think we have a lot of people, you know. I always smile when people who've been in ministry for a few years say, Well, they didn't teach me that in theological college. Well, of course they didn't, because we can't teach you everything. And I think sometimes people think that they're gonna come, and it's like, you know, if you're doing an apprenticeship to be a welder or to be a plumber, and we teach you the basics of the plumbing and the skills, and and I think there is an element of that, but I think that's what curious is for. But that's partly what curious is for, but also we're about shaping character, shaping the imagination, shaping your roots. So that there's a much bigger, you know, a bigger canvas. And I think in your initial theological training when it comes to theological college, I think it is about starting to broaden your horizon, broaden your imagination, broaden your understanding, start to put in place habits of life, habits of thought, habits of prayer that are gonna sustain you. And I think those are probably more important than specific skills because the church is changing. You know, all of us know the church is changing, ministry is changing. The way we do ministry today isn't quite the way it was done even 20 years ago, and it certainly isn't the way it's gonna be done in 50 years. And so the question I ask myself about ordinance here is how do I equip them well for a world that's changing? How do I shape people so that they would be faithful in the changes they will make to ministry and to the way ministry is done as it unfolds over the next 30, 40 years?

SPEAKER_01: 24:02

I think I I often find students um expecting to be told the stuff so that they can uh teach their congregations, you know, tell me what it is, and I then can tell the congregation. And uh like you said, Isabel, it's more about um growing habits, a certain way of thinking, of wondering, of pondering. And on the other end of the spectrum, there is this fearfulness. Oh, I'm not an academic, I really don't think can you recommend a good commentary? And I want to teach them: if you are attentive, open-hearted, read the scriptures for yourselves, you know, and and it will connect with what is in your heart. And yes, and then uh consult a commentary by all means, which can give you some extra details and observations. But don't uh don't try to bypass your own person and what you are bringing to the table.

SPEAKER_02: 25:09

And perhaps one of the most formative aspects of that training, I think, is being confronted by other people who have done the same work and come to a different conclusion. And actually think that that sometimes can be one of the most destabilizing parts of theological training, is um a person that you really like and can have dinner with every night comes to a very different conclusion about an issue that's very close to your heart and you thought a great deal about. But I think actually that that is one of those gifts of theological training that's really important to hold on to. Um, because as both Isabel and Dorothy have said, it it's not about kind of imparting information, theological education, it's about giving people tools to think well. Um and actually, I think one of the best ways we do that is by confronting people who think differently. So my hope is for our students that it's a community of people that think differently but can can hold those tensions well and understand each other deeply.

SPEAKER_01: 26:03

Yeah, that's a very, very important thing. You know, I'm sometimes worried about our society and also the church, that people just withdraw in their um bubble where they feel comfortable and an unwillingness and maybe a fearfulness to engage with others. And for me too, it's really important to see the world through other people's eyes, to see the scriptures, to see the traditions through other people's eyes, and even and to ask the question: where are they coming from? You know, why do they think transubstantiation is important or predestination? Um, and you will touch upon something which is really, really important for people, and maybe you will find I share that concern, but it leads me down a slightly different route. And even if you don't agree in the end, if you have walked in other people's shoes, if you have looked at the Bible through their eyes, it it is a game changer, it really is.

SPEAKER_00: 27:18

That's partly about I think on one side on one hand, humility, just recognizing that actually if I who try to listen to God and study scripture and tradition faithfully come to this conclusion, and you, whom I know, listen to God and study faithfully, come to a different one, then I might still think I'm right and you're wrong, but I have to have a degree of humility to accept that it is possible to be entirely well-intended and still get it wrong, and that can be me too. So I think there is something, and the other thing is if you study together and spend time together, you see the whole person. Because what worries me in our current society is we reduce people to concepts. They disagree with me on next, therefore, I have a caricature of the whole of them as an entire person, and I put them in that box over there that I don't want to go near. And whereas actually, if you, you know, if you have breakfast and lunch with somebody and dinner with somebody and you pray with them, I think it's much harder to sustain those kinds of caricature or the other. And then it makes it easier to kind of go, okay, we're both genuinely seeking God and we come to different conclusions. How do we hold that generously?

SPEAKER_04: 28:34

So we we talked about uh initial theological training and formation. I want us to end by by thinking a little bit beyond that, and and perhaps uh you if you were if if a clergy person came to you and said, I'm I'm far too busy to I'm to I'm leading the parish, and there's no time for for study. There's just there's no way that I can do that. You know, there's no there's no time for me to to to study and do theology. Kind of what what might you say to them? I wonder.

SPEAKER_02: 29:01

I mean, I think the first thing I would say to them is you're you're already doing theology. As Isabel reminded us, you you're praying in a certain way, you're doing theology. So the question is not whether whether you have time to do theology. I think the question is whether you have time to reflect on the theology that you're doing. And I think that's that's crucial if we want to be faithful stewards of what God has given us and the people that God has given us. I mean, don't hear me wrong, I know that the parish ministry is is overwhelming at times and there's a lot that fills up diaries. Um, but I think this is something that has to be a uh has to be a priority and something that I think we need to try and find more space for in the wider church because because of the fact we're already doing theology, um, I think we need to think about how we're what we're doing and what the implications of what we're doing are theologically. Because I think there's a lot that rides on those theological decisions we make all the time.

SPEAKER_03: 29:57

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 29:58

And it's It's about kind of studying. I often think of studying and doing theology as a very wide discipline. So I like, you know, in the ordinal, there's lots of words about what it means to be a priest, there's a shepherd, there's a I can't remember, steward, there's lots of things. One of the words is a watchman, which we don't often use. But for me, there is something about being the person who is rooted enough in scripture and tradition that you can watch out for the signs of God at work. But also somebody who studies enough of the world around you and reflects on it to read the signs of the time, the spirit of the time, to be able to engage with the church. And I don't believe we do that only by accident, or you know, you need to have some intentionality. So I think nurturing, doing study is partly about nurturing our roots and being able to be that person who helps interpret the church and the world for the people of God.

SPEAKER_04: 30:57

Was it Karl Bart who said, you know, a newspaper in one hand and a Bible in the other? I mean, it it's a good little image, though, isn't it? If you take in a wider sense of actually that.

SPEAKER_01: 31:09

Yeah, for me, it's also uh staying alive, and being alive means being open to change, all the time growing um in different directions and feeding yourself with new thoughts, with new ideas is just essential. I like um food metaphors, and uh you know, instead of always opening the freezer and and having the same ready meals to throw into the microwave from time to time to learn about new ingredients, to know how to learn how to cook them well, how to prepare them. So for me, having this dialogue which also challenges you, and um you might have your formula which you use in ministry for a while, but then you you always you change, you have experiences in ministry which bring you into a kind of uh deadlock, and you need to engage afresh with with the scriptures, with voices of the tradition, with contemporary thinkers.

SPEAKER_00: 32:15

Yeah. And yeah, there are ways of building that into ministry, aren't there? So one of my practices when I was a parish priest was to force myself not to preach on always the gospel or always the bit of the lectionary that felt most comfortable for me. Um so trying to dis because my my preferred way of preaching is to preach on the narrative and to do lots of storytelling. That's what I enjoy. So I try to consciously discipline myself not to just do that, because that forced me to study, to engage with commentaries and what other people had thought to a greater degree. And that was just a little, you know, a little thing, and I would have prepared my sermon anyway, but I forced myself out of my comfort zone a little bit to expand my horizons.

SPEAKER_04: 33:02

Forms of kind of reflective intentionality that pushes in different directions and cause us to question the operant theology or whatever it is that's going on, and so yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 33:13

Another good discipline could be when the lectionary changes to a different gospel to see whether you can carve out some time to engage with that particular gospel, maybe find a course, a study day somewhere. Yeah, there are ways.

SPEAKER_00: 33:28

Yeah, and things like I mean, I think the thing that's really difficult to do in ministries to build in time to reflect on things you've done. But that's really, you know, like, you know, reflect back on your PCC. What kind of theology was at work? What kind of vision of God, vision of the church, vision of being human, vision of social relationship was working in that room at that time? You know, I had a PCC once that was very, very reluctant to part with money, where people refused to do a collection after an earthquake, even. And I had to kind of go back and ask myself, what was going on here? What how do they they understand what it means to be a Christian, to be church, to be fellow human beings? What do they think God is like? What do they think church is for? What's their theology of money? And then what's my responsibility going forward? You know, what do I do? In the end, it was very funny because I think God took things out of my hand. And the next service was even song on a Sunday that most of my PCC came to. Uh, and after they'd refused to part with any money, even though we had plenty. Uh, the lectionary reading from was from Revelation. You think you are rich, but I am telling you you are poor and naked. And I just thought, that's a gift. God is trolling my congregation through the lectionary.

unknown: 34:53

It's wonderful.

SPEAKER_00: 34:54

But but it's hard, isn't it, to you know. So I think we tend to do the reflection when something obvious like this is happening. But we make lots and lots of little decisions all the time, or we have encounters and how we build time, you know. I mean, dignation kind of examine in the evening is quite helpful for that.

SPEAKER_04: 35:15

If you like that. Any form of reflection that that causes us to ask ourselves, this is this must be true, you know, so it's such an important point for all of us, of what theology, what what understanding of God is at work in in what I'm doing here, in how I'm leading this, and how I'm going about this.

SPEAKER_02: 35:30

And I wonder if there's something back to that. We talked about theological college being a place of being exposed to difference. I wonder if some of that um when we when we stop being able to reflect, it's because we very quickly get into a bubble where actually most of the people around us think similarly to us. And I wonder if there's there's some there's some benefit in finding those spaces where we're going to encounter difference. There are plenty of them in the church. Um but I think I wonder if it's actually that that that work of that costly work of humility of trying to understand where someone's coming from, being confronted with difference. Actually, you just have to reflect when you're confronted with with difference, I think.

SPEAKER_01: 36:10

Um and hearing God's voice in in the other person, and not just within church, but really beyond church, and the the better equipped you are yourselves, the better rooted you are, the more you can open up, I think, and let God speak in really unexpected places, you know, maybe the cinema, maybe um some some person you didn't like that much so far. It can happen. Yes, it can.

SPEAKER_04: 36:43

Hearing God in the unexpected. Thank you. Well, just ends for me to say thank you so much for for having this conversation. It's been a real privilege. Thank you.

SPEAKER_01: 36:53

Thank you. Thank you very much.

SPEAKER_04: 36:59

You've been listening to Reflections on Ordained Ministry, a collaboration between Ridley Hall and Ely Diocese, hosted by David Newton, produced by Matt Cooper, and funded by the National Church of England.